We truly had a REAL discussion about Covid-19 today. We discuss how we keep hearing about the number counts around the virus and that a vaccine will be available soon. BUT, we think it’s important to talk about other solutions available to us. And, of course, these solutions are focused on our food (real vs fake/chemical-laden), health, and even our doctors.
We invite you to listen and share your perspectives with us too. Send us a recorded message through Speakpipe. We may use your message in an upcoming episode, therefore, please leave your name if you would like it to be noted during the podcast. Leave an email address if you would like a personal response or feel free to use the contact form.
If you haven’t done so already, download the Delicious “No-Fail” Salads Guide.
Show References & Additional Notes:
- The video snippets we were referring to in today’s show were mostly from this video:
People are dying from viruses, here’s why that’s happening
- Here is another video that was also published this week by “Montgomery Heart & Wellness”. We think you will find some very thought-provoking information in this video also: The COVID-19 Vaccines is Here!… Does it and other vaccines work? Insights on Vaccines and other Treatments for Infectious Diseases
- I could not locate the actual snippet that was mentioned in our podcast regarding “How to Talk to Your Doctor”, yet here is another podcast by the same group, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine: Why Won’t My Doctor Talk About My Diet?
- And I wouldn’t want you to miss this one either: Covid-19 Update with Dr. Neal Bernard
Definition of “integrative medicine” – a form of medical therapy that combines practices and treatments from alternative medicine with conventional medicine (https://languages.oup.com/)
Video of this podcast:
Shonda (00:00): Hi, and hello, today's format is a bit different. We actually recorded a video along with our conversation. So if you choose, you can view this episode on the real food and drinks YouTube channel.
Shonda and Patryce (00:24): Hi and hello. Welcome to the real food and drinks lifestyle podcast. We're building a community to talk about nutrition, lifestyle choices, and just feeling better. This is Shonda, and this is Patryce. Let's just be real. Here's our disclaimer. We do not officially practice in any of the various subjects that we discuss. We are only sharing our personal experiences with you to a healthier lifestyle. Please do your own research before taking part in any of these practices.
Shonda (01:09): Yeah. Okay. Hi. So it's our first day recording face to face and we'll see how this goes. And, but, um,
Shonda (01:18): You know, we're in the middle of still COVID 19 and a lot of things are, are, are happening. Um, what, um, you know, we found some snippets that we'll be sharing with you all. And, um, today we found, what did we find, tell them what, what we found.
Patryce (01:40): One snippet that we thought that was interesting. There was a conversation, uh, two gentlemen, and they were talking about lots of talk about people dying, dying due, due to COVID 19, which is so true, but that they also commented that there's not a lot of talk about solutions, right? There's not much talk about solutions other than well, the main solution or yeah. Is the main solution of discussion seems to be about the vaccination, about the vaccine... Preparing for the vaccine.
Shonda (02:13): And, you know, I think when I talk to some people, that's all I hear, well, I guess we'll wait for this vaccine to come out, you know? And it's like, but there are other things we can do to help, you know? Um, and so kind of like what we haven't talked about yet is like why people take medications versus real food, you know, versus eating the real food. They're they're, you know, more, they're just waiting for the pill. It's like, it's the magic pill, right? Or the magic vaccination,
Patryce (02:45): Hey, I think you've caught on to something is, you know, we're already somewhat trained like that, the magic prescriptions, the meds, and here yet, we're waiting on yet the ultimate med during this time, the vaccination for COVID-19. Whereas like you pointed out, are there some other things such as the diet, the food, nutrition, and I think I see glimmers of community. We see some communities or some people talking about the fact that food is important and real food is important and actually real medicine. And we are not trying to say that there's no place for doctors and hospitals. Of course there are, there, there is. But we're also trying to say there's a place for preventative. And also for some of these treatments, I've heard of include giving vitamin C and then making sure you're eating a nutritionally packed, um, meal or meals that you're eating good food, real food.
Shonda (03:48): What, what did they talk about when from that little snippet, what else was in there? Um, I had a thought, but I can't remember (laughs),
Patryce (03:56): Another thing they pointed out, I think is that, especially in certain communities, there's more of junk food or less real food available. So when you're in a neighborhood where there are the mom and pop, well, I don't want to say mom and pop like junk food or processed food haven. Then that is where you're going. You're going to those places. Whereas if you don't have the healthiest choices, you may have to just start at home... Buying your food and eating real food that you prepare at home.
Shonda (04:34): Because I know they did mention, so what is this not eating real food leading to it's leading to what they say are the underlying causes, the diabetes, the high blood pressure, you know, what were some other things?, But these things, these conditions are created through diet. Now there's so much data out there that proves that, you know, so we need to talk about the solutions and you know, so even if we aren't directly talking about the solution to COVID-19 because we, we just know which groups have the most difficult time. And I think also a body mass index over a certain number?...
Patryce (05:18): Obecity is so on the rise in America period. But we are also learning that people who are obese, that the higher BMI, the unhealthy BMI, they are the ones not, they're more compromised in. Many of them are dying.
Shonda (05:36): Yeah. So, so we want to call people who know that they are dealing with these diseases who know that they're, you know, overweight. We need to say, Hey, we're not going to take a pill to cover that up because that's not making you healthier. And we can see from COVID-19, that's not making us healthier, just taking a pill. You're not getting the symptoms, but you still have the underlying disease. The pills are not the solution. They are not, they are not solving this. You know, they're not getting rid of the disease. You still have it. You're just able to live with it. Right.
Patryce (06:18): That's a very good point that although you are getting your symptoms under control, in many cases, you are not alleviating the source of those symptoms such as, um, again, we're not saying we're doctors here, but we, we know people who have been say, you're on six meds, it's better to be on less meds. Even if you had to take a medicine six versus one med, um, like you pointed out, we're finding out that, well, we know the meds don't treat the underlying condition. And also we don't want to underestimate the fact that there are a lot of side effects to these meds. Whereas with the real food, there are no side effects.
Shonda (06:57): Yeah. But even before we talk about the side effects, let's, let's think about this. So I have a medical condition or diabetes or high blood pressure that can be helped by food, but I'm going to decide, nah, I want to keep eating this food. So I'm going to keep taking the medicine just so I can keep eating this food that I love. And in some instances is food that you love. And in some instances, people may not be aware of it. They truly may not have the education yet to understand that there's a correlation there, but in lots of places, you know, and a lot of it ...for a lot of individuals, they're just not willing to make that change because they love certain particular foods so much that they're going to take the pill so you can keep eating the way you want to eat.
Patryce (07:52): Well. Um, I do think that's a big part of the problem and I, I don't want to throw words out there, but food addiction comes to mind. Um, so I want to validate people who are finding it hard, say they are realizing, I just don't like this whole, I feel bad. I take my pills and sometimes even feel bad after I take my pills. So there is that issue of food addiction. So what are some of the solutions if you're in that situation right now? Right?
Shonda (08:23): So if it's just a food addiction and it's really just about making choices, right? I mean, we know, I hear, okay, get everything out of the house. That's not good for you. But I mean, in some instances that's hard for people to do, but in many instances you are eating because you are feeling hungry, right? You have, something's triggering that you're hungry now. And from, I think that it could be a lack of nutrition in the food that could just trigger, just keep eating, eating, because you need more calories, you need more something. But the thing is, you kind of have, if that's the situation where you can't get everything out because someone else lives in the house and it's just not going to happen. I think that you have to make sure that you have your foods to go to,
Shonda (09:23): You know,
Patryce (09:24): Okay. And I'm asking these questions because, you know, there've been foods that, I mean, I ate, I ate for taste for years and years and if it tastes good, I would eat four or five servings of it,
Shonda (09:38): I think we all eat for taste. And I mean, I can, I can admit to that. And you know, a little, I'm just usually so busy that food is like second to what I'm doing, but, um, I do enjoy good tastes. So I just think it's just a matter of trying something different. And then, and finding those foods that you like, and if they're real foods, you can eat as many of them as you want to, you know, you don't have to limit yourself. There's no counting calories. There's no, Oh, I shouldn't eat that because I had enough, you know, um, I just heard on the, Oh, another snippet from something I was listening to yesterday, um, like an ounce of chicken, let's say meat has maybe a hundred calories where as you get 12 ounces of broccoli for a hundred calories, you know, and so that's going to fill you up.
Shonda (10:39): Now I know just eating broccoli doesn't sound exciting for people, but we're talking maybe broccoli with some, uh whole grain rice, you know, added in there and, uh, a good, healthy sauce, you know, they're, they're, plant-based sauces that you can make that can make that a yummy meal. I'm not just talking about, you know, throw some rice and broccoli and eat up. I mean, yeah, that's boring. Especially if you're addicted to food, that's very boring, but you can make that taste good. You know, you could do the garlic and the spices and the, you know, like I said, the plant-based cheeses, if you want cheese and broccoli and rice, I mean, it's all, it's all possible. You just have to do it . Really.
Patryce (11:24): Wow. Well, I totally agree with you. And I think the practical advice that...have on hand, the thing that you can go to and feel guilt free about, right? Because I know it's been so challenging in the past when, although I'm not partaking in certain foods, I am buying it for the rest of the family. And so when I did not take that advice that you just share, uh, I'm just seeing what they're eating. It's just easier. So it sounds a lot like you're saying, you know, be prepared. So there is some planning and upfront, but also there's, uh, planning and being intentional, but also having to change our habits or make new good habits. Because part of eating sometimes is about the habit, the habit, just to make a sandwich. I used to love sandwiches. I spoke ...
Shonda (12:23): And there's nothing wrong with sandwiches. It's just, what are you putting into it? What's the bread made out of.
Patryce (12:28): The bread has been an option. That's been a challenge for me because to buy... You need off the shelf bread, which is the most convenient, had not been as easy to find. But then I was able to find uh, what do you call those? The Brown rice tortillas and fill those up. I just got other things to replace the traditional bread.
Shonda (12:50): The Ezekiel Sprouted bread is still a good choice. Yeah. That's in the freezer section.
Patryce (12:56): That is in the freezer section. Yeah.
Shonda (12:58): But you just pop it in the toaster oven, you know,
Patryce (13:02): That's another good choice. You're right. And even, uh, I love kelp. They sell the little snacks, but they also sell the large square of seaweed and putting some food in there and rolling it up with some good sauce.
Shonda (13:18): Well, let me tell you, that's going to be an acquired taste for someone who's addicted to the standard or standard American diet. Right. I think, I mean, kelp and sea kelp is not normally found in the standard American diet. I mean, I'm just saying that may be more of a transition type of thing. I mean, it's good to try. I mean, it has iodine, it has really healthy benefits to it, but I just wanted, I just want to say to those of you who may be really addicted to standard American food, you know, we're not trying to get you to make this big leap. We want to gradually help, you know, some things you like that you commonly now enjoy just remake them in a different way.
Patryce (14:06): Yes. Just meet remake them in a different way. And I guess I've always been adventurous with food before I will try anything. And if you don't like it, you don't like it. You can at least try it. Um, also I've noticed that I can buy crackers instead of the bread, certain crackers, I've found black, black rice, red rice crackers that you can buy. And they're a little smaller, but they're yummy with uh, whatever you want to put on top of that. So what you said earlier is that we have to be intentional. We have to have a plan and find a community of others who will support you in this, right. I think that can't be underestimated the power of support.
Shonda (14:46): And online, online, there are really good Facebook groups. I don't know how everyone feels about Facebook or even, you know, I find that like following certain people or companies on Instagram, you know, and there's really like, no, I guess what is it? Politics and other things you can be distracted by on Instagram, really, but it's just, uh, a healthy, you know, you can choose who you want there. You can choose some healthy food, uh, creators, you know, to come and just feed your, your feed with things that will inspire you.
Patryce (15:26): That's a great idea. Okay. So these are some good ideas. And then I wanted to throw in there, we're talking about real food and real drinks. I found for myself, um, in the past, when I ate a lot more, um, I was eating more than I would drink, or I was eating so much and forgetting to drink water in the morning, and then maybe having the first glass of water halfway through the afternoon.
Shonda (15:57): Well, I had to bring mine here with us because I have not had anything to drink today. And it is 1:30.
Patryce (16:03): And I haven't, I just had a smoothie, but I did not have any water. And what I found out is that often when you're going there and you're eating, eating, it's because you're body is thirsty. So check yourself. And say, when you have hunger think, well, did I drink anything at all today? Or did I drink very little? So maybe I need to just get some water in my body and then see if I'm still hungry, or maybe I won't be as yeah. Good point. Yeah.
Shonda (16:34): Good point. Yeah. And, and to make sure to, I think drink, you know, maybe even 30 minutes before a meal helps to, you know. Helps so you won't water down your digestive juices and you know, so there there's a lot of things. Yeah. I think there are a lot of things to eating that was once natural. But now, because we have foods that are unnatural, you know, our ability to recognize the natural, the real is off we're, we're off kilter or, you know, we're just, you know, we're looking for those, um, those chemical, um, reactions or those chemical responses to our brain rather than just the natural body processes of, of food gratification and things, you know,
Patryce (17:31): That's a little deep, but I think you're right. I mean, and going back to, uh, the addiction, we find that a lot of foods have an overabundance of sodium and even added sugar, we talked in another podcast about that. So those are some of the other reactions. Our body is craving things due to overloading it, or, yeah so it's looking for that.
Shonda (17:50): What about, I know you've heard this too. What about the companies that are doing research? Like, you know, like maybe in the Pringles chips, I think they talked about that about, you know, how do we make them want more? What, what chemicals are we going to add to make more, you know, some people probably now a lot of people are aware. There's, they're like, well, it's just still tasting good. I'm going to eat it. You know, but you know, maybe someone doesn't know and, and you don't want to be taken advantage of, you don't want to be you know tricked into eating a food just because it's got a chemical or some type of lure, you know, that reminds me of like my, my husband fishing lures, you know?
Patryce (18:31): Uh, well, I think that's so true that with the chemicals and all the additives, I mean, that's why say McDonald's, it's not probably the most, it honestly, people, if they had grown up on this quality of food and what have you, they probably wouldn't even like the taste, but now their taste buds have been trained to crave that.
Shonda (18:58): It's a chemical. It's a drug. So just a little bit of it is like activating those, you know, pleasure places in the brain or whatever, and they just want more and you have to have the willpower to say, no.
Patryce (19:13): That's true. That's true. And then, yeah, another thing willpower is important and being intentional and planning, but also I have learned that we can retrain our taste buds, but yeah, so for every salt, sugary, chemically chemical based food that we've eaten, you can start eating more green, green greens. Be it kale, we've talked about that a lot and stuff like that, but even bitter herbs have been proven that if you partake in, even a small amount of these things, it curbs your appetite, but also it, it retrains your taste buds to be more accepting of not... Other things, not just the sugars and not just the salty and processed foods.
Shonda (20:02): Yeah. So we can go deep into the gut microbiome and all this stuff that's happening down in there. Or we can just say, Hey, you know what, when you eat better, your body automatically changes. And you know, it wants better. I mean, that's just plain truth. yeah.
Patryce (20:21): I like that plain description. It wants better, but we have to, like you said, take the first step to do differently.
Shonda (20:31): I was just going to say, cause meanwhile, your body's just doing the best with what it's being given.
Patryce (20:36): That's true. Yeah. I think people should be encouraged. Like you said that, yeah. We're not saying it's easy to just change overnight a hundred percent, but every little change adds to a longterm big change. So be encouraged that we can change.
Shonda (20:59): Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I like that.
Patryce (21:04): I guess I wanted to talk a little about, and that we touched on this some too... Defending unhealthy behavior.
Shonda (21:11): Okay. Yeah. I think that's what he was talking about. Yeah. Okay. Carry on.
Patryce (21:17): Well, I, I, I think that we'll hit a nerve with a lot of people hearing it, either in that forum or our forum or in any form. It's almost like people want to protect their, their right to, to living unhealthy and, and like, how dare you try to tell me how to live? And I know that it's a catch 22 because we're not trying to tell people how to live. But at the same time, we want to exercise our right to make unhealthy choices with them. When we have those horrible repercussions to it, then you still, those same people want help. So instead of just crying for the help afterwards, maybe embracing when people bring up, these are some unhealthy behaviors, not look at it, they're judging you, but maybe we can say, we're loving you because I know you and I both, you know, it's about, we want the best for anyone. Once it goes for our family, ourselves, our family, our community. So maybe we can re-think that just because something's you're right. Do you want to exercise that? Right. I think it's gotten to the point now where with food, it's our right to eat whatever we want, but do we want to continue to embrace those consequences?
Shonda (22:41): That's why we're doing this. You know, I mean, we're, we're trying to share, we want to share the knowledge that we have because we have benefited from changing our diets. Right? And we want to share it and we just want everyone to embrace it. And it is something that you have to decide to do for yourself. No one can do it. And luckily, uh, the podcast and maybe this video cast will, you know, it's in a space that you can listen to privately, so you can keep coming back and joining us, you know, and no one needs to know that you're even listening or, and we hope we're inspiring, you know. But, uh, we, we want to help be your support system. You know, you can email us with questions and, and, and things go to the website and, and send us messages, voice messages and emails alike. So yeah. What, we're more, we're more do you have on that one?
Patryce (23:45): Just that is a (I think) sore subject. Yeah. I mean, I've seen it in my own life and then I see it within, you know, what is so liberating when you meet some of the people that you've just been a little ahead of in your walk on changing something. And so you've seen other people who like were so against certain things or not ready to receive. And then you meet them years later and they're like telling you some of the same things.
Shonda (24:11): Well, now, that's a good thing. That's a really good thing. But you know, and it's true in anything, not just food and health, you know, but anything that's going on in our life, you know, to make that change, we've got to decide, because I know that there's in the beginning, there's like this hesitance, like, Oh, it's been like this forever. It's never gonna change. You know, nothing I can do is going to make a change. You know,.
Patryce (24:42): It's too hard, it's too inconvenient. I go to parties, no one is, everyone's asking why I'm not eating this. And why am I eathing that...And you know what? we are right there with you. I mean? There's always going to be someone who might not understand where you're coming from at that point in time, but that's okay.
Patryce (25:02): Just be encouraged that you can still be strong and your conviction for what you're doing at this time in your life. And then along the way, maybe others will be encouraged to try and do the same. Um, and talking about that, I just want to, you know, we've already said, we're careful, we're not doctors, and we're not trying to tell you what to do, but we do encourage you be your own advocate. And what that means is it's okay to ask questions, please do ask questions. Although we are going to doctors. And we have seen them and they've gone to school much longer than most of us. And have studied some things. They have done a great deal of good for us, but at the same time, honestly, from the doctor I've spoken with, their, they'll tell you, we did not study nutrition.
Shonda (26:00): Right. They did not study nutrition. And I think, you know, even some doctors that may know that there's something else they can do, they may not have faith in, in the, in their patient. You know, they may just say, well, this is the easiest way. I'm just going to give them this pill too. So they're thinking, you know, Oh, well, they can't, they can't make a change. I mean, you know, I mean, come on, do you really want to live up to that doctor's expectation of you that you can't do better? I mean, I know that's like a, that's a hard pill to swallow, right?
Patryce (26:41): Yeah. I had not thought about that Shonda. But that's, that's a good point. That's a good point that maybe the doc, in some situations, the medical community feels like, well, these, most of my patients are probably not looking to make a change. They're just looking for these pills. And unfortunately, nothing against the doctors, but the pharmaceutical companies are on top of doctors all the time. They are constantly trying to have doctors promote certain drugs. Every time a drug comes out. I mean, it's a money. It is a revenue generator. It is part of the economy. And so we have that whole other part of it. I can't even begin to understand all the ramifications that the whole money and big pharma and all that, you know, there's a lot that could be said probably a whole podcast about that. But going back to what you said, I think it's just important that you talk to your doctor... Ask questions. And if you feel a little shy about that, take a friend with you, take a spouse, I've heard people bringing a husband or wife or friend. Do that. Or, you know what, maybe you're just shy like, Oh, this that might sound stupid or they'll be annoyed. Keep it short, make a list..
Shonda (27:57): Yeah, well guess what I just saw recently at pcrm.org, I'll put the link with this uh podcast, video cast or whatever we decide. There... They have an article how to talk to your doctor about going plant-based, you know, or eating more plant based foods. And you know, maybe that you do want to make the change to get off certain medications, how to talk to your doctor about it.
Patryce (28:24): I love it. I love it. That's what we need. People need to be more, feel more empowered, be more empowered. That's all we're saying, be your own advocate. And if you have to bring someone with you or even bring that article or parts that you've written down from that uh resource that you're going to share Shonda... Do it. There've been so many times when I have heard people say, well, know if I can ask the doctor or the doctor knows that. And I'm not saying at the end of the day, they don't know best, but they are still human beings and they don't know everything. And they will say many of them who are embracing a lot of the different things we've talked about. It's not that they're against it. They were just never taught that it wasn't what they were taught.
Shonda (29:05): Yeah, but I'm still thinking. There are either two reasons why the doctor doesn't, wel, maybe three, you know, share these things with you. Uh, one, they are unaware. They're just totally unaware. Two, like I said earlier, they just don't believe or have faith in you as a patient, I don't know. That's just my point of view that may be, you know, not right. But three, I mean, you know, the doctors making money off writing these prescriptions.
Patryce (29:36): Well, that's another whole podcast. Okay.
Shonda (29:40): All right. I'll it at? I'll leave it at there. So in any way, if the doctor's not willing to talk about it, do you really want to keep this doctor? Consider those three options? Do you really want to keep that doctor? Okay. I'll, I'll leave it there.
Patryce (29:55): Yeah. It's a very good point. But yeah. Uh, I, I think it more and more doctors are out... Are understanding that when the doc, when the patient comes, they want to talk about the whole body. So it's that part of that is what am I eating? What am I eating? And one thing you did bring up in, you know, well, I don't know if you brought it up, but I think doctors are pressed for time and that's it. How many patients they have, they don't get a lot of time to each patient. So I'm not saying we have a solution to all this, but again, having that list to make it a little more concise, or if, if, if any, you have insurance, um, programs, or what have you, where you can call the nurse line. Maybe that's another option or perhaps if they do have, uh, your insurance has it, where you can also talk to nutritionists. That might be another start. And not that... You're learning something. And then anything you're reading about, and you can bring to your nutritionist and start forming a relationship with them as well as the doctor so that it doesn't have to be just the doctor, because honestly, I, I'm not in their shoes and depending on what practice they're in and so forth. Uh, there could be time constraints. So, so you don't feel like you're not heard or you're cheated out of time. Look at being, you know, approach your appointment with a plan.
Shonda (31:22): [inaudible]. And also now there are different doctors that put more out there on their bio about how they're eating and their approach. So if you're looking for a doctor, you can go do some research before, you know, going to see the doctor. I mean, I usually do that.
Patryce (31:44): Yeah, I'll just be honest again, I don't know, everyone's insurance situation, but when we had HMO, you are a lot more limited in that you have, if you don't go to a certain list of doctors, then you don't even get your benefits. Right. So I have, you know, don't want to run into that situation where you're going to a doctor and think it's covered and it's not, right. Yeah. So we're just saying to you do these things, but make sure you do it in the context of your insurance. Just in case, for someone not being able to get the main benefits from their insurance, but also, maybe this is a good time Shonda to encourage people to also look at what your insurance offerings are. Yeah. We changed, we had one kind of insurance when we were younger with younger kids or having, having kids because the HMO is awesome when you're having babies.
Patryce (32:34): But then later on, we changed the different types of, of, of, um, insurance. And then to find out that whole list of doctors, depending on it, if you go to a doctor outside your network, do they cover at all? Or do they cover some of it? I mean, just looking at some of those things. So sometimes you might feel more limited because of the insurance you have. But, um, I, I do think we should encourage people, even if you have a certain kind of insurance be, um, be researching, like Shonda said what the different options are, with the doctors. There are different doctors out there. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Sure.
Patryce (33:12): Well I go to, there is Dr. Nash, she is under the insurance, it's under something called integrative medicine and [Shonda: That's a good term to look for. ]Yeah. Because functional medicine or at least the ones that got out in my area, they were not insuring they weren't taking insurance. So I wanted to start with someone who can take my insurance. Right. Although she still does these tests and all that stuff. And she might tend to go more on the other side, but you can always say you only want whatever tests you want, but also she seems to be open to the first appointment listening. And then also when some doctors won't run certain specific tests, she's more open to it. [Shonda: Integrative medicine is a good, uh, thing to search for when you're searching for the doctor. Yeah. I think that's, that's a good thing. Yeah. Thanks.] At the end of the day, we're all just trying to be real in getting healthier, having our best life. Yeah. That's all. That's all I got. [Shonda: Okay.]
Shonda (34:21): Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoy today's podcast. Remember you can catch show notes and additional details at realfoodanddrinks.com under the podcast menu. Also subscribe to our podcast if you aren't already a member of our community. And if listening through Anchor, please send us a message of topics you would like to hear us have conversations about until next time. Let's just be real.
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